Debunking the Men’s Rights Movement

What follows is a response to a popular list of claims and arguments made by men’s rights activists.

1. SUICIDE: Men’s suicide rate is 4.6 times higher than that of women’s. [Dept. Health & Human Services — 26,710 males vs 5,700 females]

Not for lack of trying: women attempt it three times as often. [1] Researchers have found that gender differences in socialization is the strongest explanation for men’s relative success in suicide attempts. In the United States, for instance, it has been shown that unsuccessful suicide attempts are considered “feminine” while it is considered masculine to succeed. In other words, the fear of being labeled “feminine” or “weak” in a male supremacist culture encourages men to ensure their attempts are successfully completed. [2] The statistic given here also masks that many of these “suicides” were actually murder-suicides. In the United States, an estimated 1,000 to 1,500 people died in suicide attacks each year. [3] More than ninety percent of the offenders are men; nearly all the victims are female. [4]

2. LIFE EXPECTANCY: Men’s life expectancy is seven (7) years shorter than women’s [National Center for Health Statistics — males 72.3 yrs vs females 79 yrs] yet receive only 35% of government expenditures for health care and medical costs.

This is a curious statement. If women live seven years longer than men, it should be obvious why they receive more health support: because the oldest people in society are those that most need subsidized health support, and the oldest people are predominantly women. Furthermore, the insurance industry charges $1 billion a year more to women in health insurance each year for the same coverage plans men receive [5], and up to 53% more for the same individual coverage plan [6], despite women’s overall better health and despite receiving 23% less income then men. [7]

3. WAR: Men are almost exclusively the only victims of war [Dept. Defense — Vietnam Casualties 47,369 men vs 74 women]

The first thing to say is that if trained soldiers sent to engage in imperial wars of aggression can be called victims at all, then they are victims of those responsible for the wars in which they fought. And those responsible are men. All Presidents and Vice Presidents have been men. All members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been men. Both branches of Congress have always been dominated by men. Polls since Vietnam show that men have been the ones to support going to war, and the ones most likely to support wars currently in progress. [8] On every level of analysis it is men who are responsible for war, and to somehow blame male combat deaths on women is not only absurd, but insane. If we want to stop these deaths, we need to stop those who are responsible for them: the male politicians, male military personnel, male war contractors, and male warmongers who perpetuate them. The second thing to say is that this is simply a lie. A study by researchers at the Harvard Medical School looking at wars in 13 countries, including the Vietnam War, found that of the 5.4 million people violently killed, more than 1 million were female. [9] This figure does not account for those women killed less measurably through aerial spraying, inflicted poverty, and the use of depleted uranium munitions. This also ignores male sexual violence during wartime. In Vietnam, for instance, it was common and accepted practice for soldiers to gang rape women and young girls, as well to kill a female following a rape. [10] Such was the frequency of the latter that the term “double veteran” was coined to refer to such perpetrators. [11]

4. WORKPLACE FATALITIES: Men account for more than 95% of all workplace fatalities.

The figure is 92% as of 2012. One important reason for this discrepancy is that men are inclined to select work that is dangerous in order to prove their masculinity to women, to other men, and to themselves. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the most dangerous professions in the United States are construction, transportation, and warehousing, all of which are male-dominated professions. [12] Men’s relative risk of danger is further increased through a relative lack of safety compliance. [13] Tellingly, the most common way for a woman to die in the workplace is to be murdered. [12]

5. MURDER: Men are murdered at a rate almost 5 times that of women. [Dept. Health & Human Services — 26,710 men vs 5,700 women]

Men also murder at a rate more than 9 times that of women. That men are often killed by other men is not a problem that women are responsible for. I can hardly imagine why that even needs to be said. In the United States in 2010, 1,095 women were killed by husbands or boyfriends, accounting for 37.5% of female murders. By contrast, only 241 men were killed by their female partners. [14] The smallness of this figure is particularly striking when we consider that 200,000 women in the United States suffer serious violence from male partners each year, justifying a deadly response. [15]

6. CHILD CUSTODY: Women receive physical custody of 92% of all children of separation, and men only 4%. [Department of Health & Human Services]

91% of the time, custody is agreed upon or settled by parents themselves, usually without outside mediation. Mothers are more likely to receive custody because both parents usually understand that it is in the best interests of their children. In married two-partner households, women spend nearly twice as much time doing child care as their male partners. [16] Only 4% of custody cases go to trial and only 1.5% are resolved there. [17] In disputed custody cases, fathers win custody 70% of the time, [18] despite abusive men being among those most likely to fight for custody. [19]

7. JURY BIAS: Women are acquitted of spousal murder at a rate 9 times that of men [Bureau Justice Statistics — 1.4% of men vs 12.9% of women]

This is not a matter of “bias”: women are sometimes acquitted of murdering their husbands because their husbands abused them or their children. It is estimated that 1.3 million women are beaten by male partners in the United States every year, putting them in fear for their lives. [20] Every one of these women would be justified in killing her spouse or partner and receiving an acquittal. It is exceptionally rare for any man to experience a comparable level of terroristic threat from his wife.

8. COURT BIAS: Men are sentenced 2.8 times longer than women for spousal murder [Bureau Justice Statistics — men at 17 years vs women at 6 years]

As per above, many women receive lighter sentences for killing their husbands because their purpose in doing so was to stop physical abuse against themselves or their children. One study of men and women charged with domestic offense, distinguished between five forms of domestic violence in order to gather a better understanding of the circumstances underlying partner violence. What they found was that while women “overwhelmingly” engaged in resistive violence, often linked with substance abuse, 95% of the men charged were batterers, defined as “an ongoing patterned use of intimidation, coercion, and violence as well as other tactics of control to establish and maintain a relationship of dominance over an intimate partner.” [21]

9. JUSTICE SYSTEM BIAS: Women are assessed for Child Support on average at half the rate of men, yet are twice as likely to default on Child Support payments. Ninety Seven (97%) of all child support prosecutions are against fathers. [Census Bureau]

Women are assessed less often than men and default more often because women aged 18-35 have on average $0 in net worth. Many mothers simply have no means to pay child support. By comparison, white men of the same age have a median wealth of $5,600, and men of color have $1,000. [22] This wealth discrepancy also pressures young mothers who care for the welfare of their children to prosecute men for child support.

10. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: Numerous credible studies from independent researchers report that women are the initiators of domestic violence in 58% of all cases, and cause physical abuse in almost 50% of all cases, yet women only account for 6% of all criminal proceedings in such matters.

It’s telling that you speak of “numerous credible studies” and carefully avoid citing any of them. I tried to find studies from any source making such claims, with no success. What I did find is the most recent report by the US Department of Justice, which found women suffer 805,700 physical injuries at the hands of partners each year, compared to 173,960 men. Moreover, the injuries suffered by women were more than twice as likely to be considered “serious”, defined as including sexual violence, gunshot and knife wounds, internal injuries, unconsciousness, and broken bones. To put that another way, partners inflicted 104,741 serious injuries on women, compared with less than 9,400 inflicted on men, a greater than 11:1 ratio. [16] Even those men who have been subject to partner violence have usually not taken it seriously. According to a study by researchers at the Medical College of Wisconsin, they were “significantly more likely than were women to laugh at partner-initiated violence”, while women “reported more fear, anger, and insult and less amusement when their partners were violent.” [23] It’s also worth noting that a number of these male injuries were incurred by male rather than female partners; according to a 2000 Department of Justice report, men living with male partners are at nearly twice the risk of “serious” violence as those living with women. [24] If women really are criminally prosecuted in 6% of domestic violence cases, then that figure sounds eminently reasonable.

11. CHILD VIOLENCE: Mothers commit 55% of all child murders and biological fathers commit 6%. NIS-3 indicates that Mother-only households are 3 times more fatal to children than Father-only households. Despite these compelling figures, children are systematically removed from the natural fathers who are their most effective protectors.

The first sentence is unsourced and not credible. According to one group of filicide [child murder] researchers:

Although some studies have noted that mothers commit filicide more often than fathers, other research has shown that paternal filicide is as common or more common than maternal filicide. Reports of a higher proportion of maternal filicides most likely reflect the inclusion of neonaticides in some studies. [25]

In other words, there is no agreement as to whether mothers or fathers are more likely to kill their own children, but when mothers are seen as more likely, it is likely because infanticides are included in the results. According to the above researchers, the main motivation “may be the undesirability of the child,” and mothers under the age of 20 with a previous child are among those most likely to engage in such a murder. Young mothers without sufficient economic, family, or medical support may find there are no better options for themselves or for their other children. By contrast, fathers who kill their children are “often perpetrators of fatal-abuse filicide”, meaning that they batter their children to death. Some of the most common motivations for father filicide are “attempts to control the child’s behavior, and misinterpretation of the child’s behavior”. [25] I’ve recently obtained a copy of the NIS-3 study, and while Table 5-4 does indeed provide data indicating that “Mother-only households are 3 times more fatal to children than Father-only households,” the provided footnote also says explicitly that the difference is either statistically insignificant or marginal, with p-values above 0.10. What that means is that the numbers, while provided, are statistically worthless and cannot be used to even hint at inferences. Meanwhile, the data from the NIS-3 regarding parental households that is statistically valid paints a very different picture. In every category, father-only households put children at a higher risk of harm than mother-only households. Risk of abuse is 71% higher, including a 68% greater chance of physical abuse. Risk of neglect is 28% higher, including a 32% rise for physical neglect, 67% rise for emotional neglect, and 14% rise for educational neglect. Risk of both moderate or serious injury is 40% higher. That this is true is particularly exceptional when we pair this with data from the more recent NIS-4 study which found that households with a lower socioeconomic status were nearly 7 times more likely to involve neglect, including a nearly ninefold risk of physical neglect. Overall the safety of children in these households was classified as 5.7 times more severe than those of a higher socioeconomic background. [26] Single women with children are far more likely than men to live under conditions of severe poverty: both black and Hispanic women with children under age 18 have an average median wealth of $0, compared to $10,960 for black men and $2,400 for Hispanic men; white women with children have an average median wealth of $7,970, compared to an average of $56,100 for white men. [22] If economic justice for women was sufficiently advanced, we would expect the safety of mother-only households illustrated by the NIS-3 to increase still further. Given this information, to call fathers the “most effective protectors” of children is a hateful turn of phrase, suggesting that mothers wish harm on their children and only fathers can protect them. This in spite of the reality that children are far safer in the custody of their mothers than their fathers.

12. WEALTH: Women hold 65% of the total wealth in the USA [Fortune Magazine]

This is a ridiculous lie, and to their credit I can find no evidence that Fortune Magazine ever made such a claim. Contrary to this claim, one Harvard University researcher found that men have an average net worth of $26,850, compared to an average of $12,900 for women. [27] That is to say, men on average hold more than twice the wealth of women.

References

[1] http://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

[2] http://mamyers.myweb.uga.edu/DSC%20R%20GenderParadoxSuicide.pdf

[3] http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/21/murder-suicides-are-in-a-class-by-themselves/2572133/

[4] http://www.jaapl.org/content/37/3/371.long

[5] http://www.nwlc.org/press-release/new-nwlc-report-discriminatory-health-insurance-practices-cost-women-1-billion-year

[6] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/health/policy/women-still-pay-more-for-health-insurance-data-shows.html?scp=1&sq=women%20insurance%20costs&st=cse

[7] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/07/the-wage-gap-between-men-and-women-has-grown-during-the-recovery/

[8] http://www.gallup.com/poll/7243/gender-gap-varies-support-war.aspx

[9] http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7659/1482

[10] Nick Turse, Kill Anything That Moves: The Real American War in Vietnam, pages 164-171

[11] http://www.waywordradio.org/double_veteran_1/

[12] http://pro.sagepub.com/content/41/2/1283.short

[13] http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0011.pdf

[14] http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain

[15] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipvav9311.pdf

[16] http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/06/15/a-tale-of-two-fathers/

[17] http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm#fn%201

[18] Joan Zorza, “Batterer manipulation and retaliation compounded by denial and complicity in the family courts” In M.T. Hannah & B. Goldstein (editors), Domestic violence, abuse and child custody: Legal strategies and policy issues

[19] http://www.nnflp.org/apa/issue5.html

[20] http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/ipvbook-a.pdf

[21] http://mhifc.org/Articles/Reexamining%20Battering.pdf

[22] http://www.insightcced.org/uploads/CRWG/LiftingAsWeClimb-WomenWealth-Report-InsightCenter-Spring2010.pdf

[23] http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/8/11/1301.short

[24] https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181867.pdf

[25] http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/1/74.full.pdf+html

[26] http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/opre/nis4_report_congress_full_pdf_jan2010.pdf

[27] http://citation.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/9/2/6/pages109260/p109260-1.php

This response was written by Owen Lloyd, a stay-at-home dad living on the Oregon coast. Hate mail can be addressed to him at owen.lloyd@protonmail.com

A French translation of this document is also available here: http://scenesdelavisquotidien.com/2014/04/05/demystifier-le-mouvement-de-defense-des-hommes/

Advertisements

329 thoughts on “Debunking the Men’s Rights Movement

  1. I have a question for you in regards to the workplace fatalities segment. In it, you said “Men further increase their relative risk of danger by complying with safety regulations less frequently than women.” Isn’t that the same excuse that is used in regards to women who are victims of rape? The same argument that is then moaned about as being ‘victim-blaming’? You know, the whole ‘women increase their risk of being victimized by complying with typical safety expectations less frequently’. I just think that if we can use it to explain why men account for more workplace fatalities, we should also be able to use it to explain why some women are victimized by criminals.

    • I understand your point but this isn’t the same reasoning. When people are injured in the workplace, they usually incur those injuries upon themselves. There isn’t some outside party willfully incurring that damage on them. If there was, then that outside party would obviously be responsible. As is the case in rape as well.

      In saying this I’m not trying to dismiss that workplace injuries are bad, or claim that workers are fully responsible for what happens to them in the workplace. After all, some men, including my own dad, are forced into lines of work where danger is more prevalent and that is not their fault.

      • No they are usually doing a job where risk is inherent, or they are in a workplace where the employer is negligent. If they break the ‘rules’ you will find that is because it is the ethos of the workplace and that said ethos has been fostered by management, but hey you can blame that on the patriarchy can’t you!

      • I’m not saying they’re the exact same reasoning, and thus they are the same issue, but they are very similar. Obviously people who are victimized by rapists are not bringing it on themselves, but it could very well be argued that by ignoring typical societal expectations of safety, they’re putting themselves in more danger. Again, I’m not ignoring that in the case of rape there is an additional person who is victimizing them, but I would like to think people could agree that when an individual gets drunk at a bar with no one they trust to watch out for them they’re certainly making it easier for a rapist to victimize them.

        I’m also not saying the outside party is entirely responsible, because they are, but individuals need to be responsible for their own safety. So I pretty much think that if that’s not reasonable, then trying to justify men accounting for the majority of workplace deaths with the same argument is irresponsible and illogical.

      • Alright – is it not the same logic as women making less money, though?

        If it is legitimate to call the gendered problem of male workplace death and injury a result of “Men’s choices”, then it is legitimate to call the gendered problem of women’s pay gap a result of “Women’s Choices”. In both cases, each group is socialized from an early age to choose careers that would detriment them (in the case of men, through injury and death, and in the case of women, lower pay.) You seem to be willing to directly blame individual men for their personal choice of entering a dangerous workplace for higher pay, while blaming cultural socialization for the droves of women who are actively choosing lower paying fields.

        Either it’s the result of individual choice, or it’s a problem of socialization – can’t have it both ways.

      • I’ll add to that – workplace injuries are directly perpetrated, in most cases, by inanimate objects. The comparison of accidental injuries due to machinery, heavy lifting, etc. to rape, which is deliberately perpetuated by living, breathing, and cognitively capable *rapists* is asinine.

    • You clearly never worked in a high risk profession. That’s okay, education is available.
      In Construction, and other high risk professions, the vast majority of accidents are preventable. There is no will creating a risk factor, or causing an accident. “tie down that load” “wear your safety glasses” etc. are based on clear and predictable, provable factors. When someone does not properly tie down a load, others and sometimes themselves are placed at a preventable risk. That’s why we have rules.
      In rape, the perpetrator as a criminal, on trial with everything to loose, as with other criminals, will find any excuse they can. Look up some of the excuses murderers have tried to use, it’s hilarious! My point is that just because someone who chose to harm someone else makes an excuse, does not mean that everyone else has to live as though that excuse were valid.

    • I’m outraged at this comparison tbh. The ONLY person conceivably responsible for a rape is the rapist! A woman isn’t putting herself in harms way by wearing what she wants, drinking where she wants or behaving how she wants. Anyone suggesting such a thing clearly has no understanding of the psychology of rape – a rapist gets off on power – not on short skirts or flirty behaviour.

      A guy working in a dangerous setting is going into that setting on informed consent. A woman walking in a carpark is not doing so on the basis of “informed consent” knowing that rape is a possibility. A woman doesn’t marry a guy thinking that marital rape is a possible outcome of the ceremony… A woman doesn’t sit in the same room as a family friend with it clearly outlined that rape is a possible scenario. For most women, they don’t think of rape as a possibility at all until they are being raped.

      So why don’t you take your completely flawed “argument” and cram it up your arse!

      • In addition to this, I’d like to point out that however much a woman KNOWS that rape is not her fault, there is ALWAYS a HUGE element of shame. Crushing, humiliating shame – so much so that a shockingly high number of even the most violent of rapes go unreported. And utter twats like you are a huge part of that. It’s disgusting even giving that argument more air time, even if you don’t wash with it. A person should be able to walk around naked/inebriated/cat calling at all who pass them by without fear of rape.

        Someone knowingly taking on a high risk job? You drew a comparison with that? REALLY?

      • i agree a friend of mine was a victim the guy walked because she was wearing spanx which are worn for vollyball

      • I agree with Jo. When I’m at work and I get hurt, even if it’s someones fault, or old equipment it’s my fault for working in a masculine profession to prove my masculinity. Just because a woman wants to prove her feminine nature by taking different kinds of jobs, dressing differently, or acting differently which results in lower pay or even a crime against them–that’s very different. When a man conforms to gender roles or takes a job because it’s the only one available to him it’s not sexist against the man. When a woman takes on feminine roles that may pay less or because she seeks more flexibility at work it’s because she’s a victim, expect that’s her choice and right, so she’s not really a victim except that she’s a victim of any negative impact of decisions by others. For example, if a man gets drunk and beaten up and has his watched stolen it’s because he was proving his masculinity and a sexist society against women. But when a woman gets drunk and beaten up and has her watched stolen it was her right to drink, her body, and a sexist society that made her compelled to act feminine.

    • For that to be an accurate analogy, it would have to go something like this:

      Man doesn’t ear safety glasses = man gets eye damage
      Woman doesn’t wear miniskirt = women gets raped

      However, while there is a clear connection between protecting your eyes with protective goggles, there is no clear connection between most of what we trot out as “safety advice” for women. Don’t wear a miniskirt? What length? In what setting? In what season? There is a very clear connection between mini skirts and frost bite/ hypothermia in the winter, but rape?

      The great thing about the first piece of advice, “Wear safety glasses”, is that it can be applied to all genders with quantifiable results. So, one and all, let us wear safety glasses when doing work that can cause detritus to embed itself in our peepers!

      • I assume if she’s not wearing a miniskirt she’s just walking around naked or in knickers/ panties ? Frostbite could be the worst outcome. Perhaps a little less passion and a little more logic would make for a more compelling argument.

      • My apologies. Just being flippant.
        Really can’t see how relating safety in inherently dangerous industries to rape prevention is an informative debate to have. It’s comparing apples with oranges, both fruit but really intrinsically different.
        I don’t want to get dragged into this debate but interesting how you say ‘as easily undertaken as wearing safety glasses’. Safety glasses were invented in 1916, and their improvement in quality, reduction in price and incorporation into everyday use as a preventive measure is the result of over a centuries research, investment and cultural change.
        Could something similar be invented, let’s call it a rape shield for arguments sake, that might prevent say (not sure what the correct term is) stranger rape? I would suspect that it really would be within the bounds of current technology. The question is would people be prepared to pay for it?

      • Leon, you’re totally missing the point raised – it’s not about about how straightforward safety goggles were to invent and come into mass production. It’s not even about the bloody safety goggles at all. It’s about the fact that ignoring safety protocols or not using the safety equipment provided is foolhardy and results in injuries – those injuries can be quantifiably demonstrated to be the responsibility of the person who should have known better and could have prevented the injury in the first place. And thus workplace injuries, given the points raised in the original argument, make for a shabby statistic for an MRA to use for their argument.

        Rape however carries no such “safety protocol”. All the advice given to women regarding how to protect themselves is flawed and more often than not adhered to prior to an actual rape anyway! The vast majority of rapes occur when the victim knows the perpetrator – she is often in normal clothing in the “safety” of her own home or that of a family friend. Even women who are raped by total strangers are often clad from head to toe in heavy clothing, completely sober and not in any particular “high risk” situation. The “ugly”, elderly and obese are just as likely to be raped – it’s not about physical attraction, it’s about power. There already exist chastity belts that could prevent rape, but walking around in daily life is not putting yourself in a “high risk” scenario to be raped – whereas ignoring safety protocols and equipment in the workplace is indeed putting yourself at high risk of a work related injury.

      • Like I said no point comparing apples and oranges.
        However I must point out a few glaring errors in your argument.
        Work related fatalities are just that, fatalities. Your repeated assertions that some how a fatality can be prevented by some safety glasses, or safety shoes or a high vis jacket are completely erroneous.
        So no the foundation is solid and it is a genuine disparity between the sexes. Women have been cosseted and protected from the harsh realities of hard and dangerous labour for centuries and now we have a generation of women so distant from real work they are foolish enough to describe their privilege as oppression.
        Yes the majority of alleged rapes are reported to have being carried out by known alleged assailants. This category of rape is the least likely to make it to court, and also least likely to gain a prosecution.
        Although stranger rape is the smallest category it is the most likely to be successfully prosecuted.
        Few women spend a great deal of time in situations that stranger rape is likely to occur, so in terms of risk per unit of time the risk of stranger rape is significantly greater. Feminist propaganda has badly misinformed women of the real risks of rape.
        Finally you are also badly misinformed about who is raped. The age range for victims of rape correlates with women’s fertility. Yes the older you are the less you have to worry about, but there are always outliers.

        It is clear that you are an unwitting sponge for feminist propaganda and exist in a cloud of female privilege that has rendered you both deaf and blind to the plight of your fellow man. You need to critically reassess the information you have absorbed and find out the facts, then think them through in a less prejudiced way.

      • Actually Leon, my views don’t come from feminist propaganda, my views come from having been raped, by a stranger, in a hotel car park back in November. My information regarding statistics etc come from my time spent with the police, Family Matters, Victim Support and Rape Crisis (the latter three being charities that help support rape survivors). My claims may be a little different as I’m in the UK. So why don’t you stop making stupid assumptions and go fuck yourself.

      • Sorry to hear about your experience. Unfortunately all three of the organisations you just quoted as independent sources are feminist organisations. Rape crisis only supports women and girls because men never get raped. Victim support only offers information for women. Family matters sounds gender neutral but are quick to point out they offer women only spaces. As a sexually assaulted male you already know you don’t belong. As we have seen from recent spurious attempts at prosecutions of a number of dated accusations against celebrities we can see that the police are also in the grip of the feminist vice. Oh and sanctions for the women making false allegations that we saw in those recent cases. NONE.
        So do you really think that you got factual gender neutral information from those organisations. No, in your hour of need when you were most vulnerable they told you what they wanted you to hear. In which case I apologise for calling you an unwitting sponge. You still need to critically reevaluate all you have been told though.

      • You’ve got to be fucking kidding me Leon. What do you want, rape crisis centers to consult with MRAs to get the “real facts” about rape? Because, I mean, what do WOMEN know about that? As far as “fake allegations” of rape, these are almost mythological in rarity and even the “confirmed” cases are usually bullshit. For instance, see this piece written by a woman “proven” to have falsely alleged rape: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2013/08/23/i-am-a-false-rape-allegation-statistic/

      • Oh really. Go quote Susan Brownmiller and her made up statistics to someone who cares. So the organisations set up to deal with rape just don’t deal with male rape. That couldn’t possibly an indication of a sexist organisation could it? Sure if you want to trust a sexist organisation with the facts that is your prerogative. Good luck with that.

      • Men are raped by men. And hell, they’re often raped by misogynist men who justify it to themselves by pretending their victim is female (using words like “sissy”, “pussy”, etc.)

        It’s not women’s responsibility to do anything about men raping men. It’s men’s business. Why don’t you and your MRA pals start up men’s shelters instead of continuing to whine about feminists? Why don’t you try doing some actual work on behalf of men instead of berating women for not catering to your every demand?

        Also, what kind of moron comes on to the discussion page of an article to tell the poster to talk “to someone who cares” whilst blathering rape apologia I am not interested in hearing? I’ll take this to mean you are done with the discussion. Goodbye.

      • Debunkingmras:
        I agree with everything you’ve said, except for this:
        “It’s not women’s responsibility to do anything about men raping men.”
        That is exactly the kind of statement that is stopping society from solving the rape problem. You sound like you’re the kind of person that finds stopping rape extremely important, and yet you saying that your gender isn’t responsible for stopping rape that isn’t of itself.

      • Hi Will, I do want to clarify that I’m not saying that women SHOULDN’T do anything about men raping men, just that they’re not responsible for that work, because they’re not the ones perpetuating it.

      • DebunkingMRAs,
        After writing this comment I realized that you’re a man. The point I made still stands, its just that “your gender” is supposed to represent women.
        Ignorant mistake on my part.

      • And most importantly, look at the causes of injuries in both cases.

        Eye injury: cause is debris in eye, an inanimate entity simply following the rules of physics with no choice of its own. Protection: eye goggles.

        Rape: cause is rapist. Protection (according to anti-feminists) is dressing “modestly”. Logical conclusion based on this set of statements: rapists can’t prevent themselves from raping someone who isn’t dressed modestly.

        Which, of course, is utter bullshit. Rapists aren’t compelled by the laws of physics or by uncontrollable instincts to rape someone. They make conscious choices to do so. Therefore, rapists are responsible for rape.

    • I have learnt as a female who grew up idolizing her uncle and being raised by a single mother that: 1. men are less likely to be cautious and seem to learn better when they do it themselves rather than be told what to do regardless of safety risks 2. even if they know it’s dangerous they seem more likely to do it until something bad actually happens 3. it’s hard for women to enter male dominated work forces like the ones listed and other jobs that are stereotypically male jobs like being a mechanic 4. As a female it doesn’t seem to matter what I wear guys still act creepy including trying to get me to get in their cars when I walk home from school I doesn’t matter if it’s a t-shirt and jeans or skirts that are to my ankles or a mini skirt 5. there is no safety rules to prevent rape other than to lock your doors, never come out and never answer the door . Even then I’m sure there’s still a risk 6. Your comparison is more than flawed it’s completely irrational and although not all work accidents are preventable many are

      • Kiki,
        You said:
        “even if they know it’s dangerous they seem more likely to do it until something bad actually happens ”
        Making this kind of broad statement about half of the population of the world is detrimental to society. I would also like to see a statistic to back this up, because this is not true but of 10% of the men I know.
        All I am recommending is that you shouldn’t make that kind of statement about all men, at least not without real evidence for it.

      • You learned from one man and one woman what men and women in general are more or less likely to do? Your uncle does not represent all men and your mother doesn’t represent all women. A lot of your points would be a lot more relevant if you backed them up with statistics instead of generalizing the behaviors of 7 billion people based only on the people you have met.

    • How is being attacked for how you look the same as not complying with a safety precaution such as “lift with the legs?” Are you fucking serious right now? You are a perfect example of how brainwashed society is. Fucking disgusting!

    • The difference is that the laws of physics are an inevitable force, whereas rapists and other attackers can control their own actions.

  2. Your debunking sucks. It’s more like excuse making and gender biased compassion. You post stats on female victims of domestic violence and not men. You dismiss the deaths of men drafted into combat roles. You dismiss men’s lives and welfare and call that a debunking of MRA’s. You sound more like a heartless monster who is good at finding excuses to hate or be indifferent to the suffering of certain kinds of people. Unimaginative bigots are a dime a dozen just know humanism isn’t coming from you and neither is equality.

    • Good point Edward, this guys article is a great example of the misandry in our culture. He talks about stats that impact men very negatively as a way of pointing out how MRAs are debunked yet he offers no sympathy or care to help men. Just more proof of so called smart people trying to tell men your problems do not matter…. well as much as womens, and womens is all we care to write about. get it.

      Hey debunkdude, MRA is about men calling for help, its about men needing help in our society, do you care? Do you hate men? Why dont you join the fight to help men no?

      • Hahahahahaha! Men calling for help? You mean all this time the misogynist crap spewing forth from the Manosphere is really supposed to make people come to your aid? If you need help you should stop hating women and start a shelter. All I see you MRA’s do is fill Paul Elam’s pockets full of money totalling 80-100K/year.

        Are you going to debunk any stats or are you just going to screech ‘misandry’ and pollute the comment section with male tears? I’m so tired of you idiots. Either debunk the debunker or get lost.

        FYI, I’ve been critiquing the ‘Manosphere’ for years now and I’ve heard just about all there is from these creeps.

    • I’m not dismissing men or men’s experiences. I am a man, and I agree with you that it sucks to be a man. But it doesn’t suck because of women. It doesn’t suck because of feminists. It sucks because of gendered expectations and demands ultimately designed to benefit men. It sucks because male violence makes women rightfully afraid of us. It sucks to be a man because male supremacy dictates that we act out and ritualize our superiority over women all the time. And however much it might suck for men, things are incomparably worse for women, the intended targets of patriarchy, for whom one of four will be physically or sexually assaulted by a man. The men’s rights movement doesn’t want to change any of this: it simply wants male privilege to exist without all the pesky “costs” that make it possible in the first place. And you’re right, I have no heart or compassion or sympathy for that.

      • You might meet the occasional MRA that wants male privilege without the costs. But most MRAs actually want true equality (usually equality of opportunity).

        I think one key thing you are missing is that in general, MRAs aren’t just blaming feminists or women for the problems of men. Rather society is to blame, and women and feminists are part of society.

      • Wait. are you saying that “male privilege” is justified because men pay the “cost”?

      • “But it doesn’t suck because of women. It doesn’t suck because of feminists. It sucks because of gendered expectations and demands ultimately designed to benefit men.”

        MRA’s aren’t blaming women. MRA’s don’t take everything that feminists do and turn it opposite.

        MRA’s are saying, “Hey, we’re human too. Can we get some of the same treatment?”

        It’s about equality. If you meet an MRA who says otherwise, he/she is not an MRA. He/she is a misogynist.

      • “It sucks because of gendered expectations and demands ultimately designed to benefit men.”

        Designed by who?

      • To Howboutequality
        that is originally what feminist were about and many of us still are about equality how ever there will always be the crazies that take it to over the top extremes like the females who call any man who disagrees with them sexist and i agree that things need to be more equal and although I’m sure it wasn’t your intention; how you put it makes it sound like the MRA are the only ones fighting for it and to be honest i think both the feminists and the MRAs need to stop what they’re doing and start working together to make the world equal. I’d also highly suggest that you watch Tough Guise if you haven’t already. This is coming from a girl who has never cared what was “right” for her gender and I am a gamer and not only am I sick of how some males treat female gamers but, I am also so sick and disgusted by people like Anita Sarkeesian who make it harder not only for us gamer girls to be accepted but also for men to be able to trust that they won’t be attacked for what they love when they do try to share it with their female counter parts we need to stop being a VS. campaign and start being a side by side co-op campaign

    • I would disagree with your assessment on being drafted, as America hasn’t seen a draft since Vietnam and Third wave feminism hasn’t taken root until recent times. Arguably, you could say they are volunteers and want to do the job aside from those destitute circumstances where joining the military is the only way to feed yourself and get out of poverty, then it isn’t really much of a choice.

  3. 1. “Not for lack of trying: women attempt it three times as often.”
    Maybe because men’s conditioning to avoid “weakness” resulted in men being quite a bit less likely to report their suicide attempt.
    “The statistic given here also masks that many of these “suicides” were actually murder-suicide”
    What exactly is your point here? And how is 1000-1500 out of 26k “many”?

    2. You’ve framed the issue differently than most MRAs would. This is a straw person fallacy.

    3. “And those responsible are men….On every level of analysis it is men who are responsible for war”
    Except the analysis that remembers WOMEN VOTE. In fact, women consistently out-number men at the polls.
    “In Vietnam, for instance, it was common and accepted practice for soldiers to gang rape women and young girls, as well to kill a female following a rape.”
    Yes. After soldiers killed the men outright.

    4. “men are inclined to select work that is dangerous in order to prove their masculinity to women, to other men, and to themselves.”
    Even if I were to take this statement at face value, are you implying that a man is personally at fault for the gender norms he’s conditioned to adhere to?
    “Men further increase their relative risk of danger by complying with safety regulations less frequently than women. ”
    Again, gender norms are at fault for this. Men are coerced to be reckless, while women are viewed as needing to be protected.

    5. ” That men are often killed by other men is not a problem that women are responsible for. ”
    Women are equally responsible for fighting against destructive gender norms such as “male protector”, “male provider”, “male criminality”. These are what lead to the statistics you quote.

    6. ” In disputed custody cases, fathers win custody 70% of the time, ”
    Your citation says the opposite: women are 3x as likely to be awarded sole custody.

    7. “It is exceptionally rare for any man to experience a comparable level of terroristic threat from his wife.”
    Where’s your citation for that? It doesn’t speak for itself.

    8. Spousal murder is just one type of crime. Women receive different sentencing in all categories of jurisprudence.

    9. You’ve framed the issue differently than most MRAs would. Another straw person argument.

    10. “It’s telling that you speak of “numerous credible studies” and carefully avoid citing any of them. I tried to find studies from any source making such claims, with no success”
    http://smu.edu/experts/study-documents/family-violence-study-may2006.pdf
    21.45% of couples reported violence. Male-to-female violence was reported in 13.66% of couples, while 18.20% for female-to-male violence. Thus, women are 1.33 times as likely to be violent. (Severe violence only raises this ratio to more than 2x as likely.)

    11. Another issue that you’ve gone at lengths to frame in a manner that isn’t consistent with MRA’s overall. Either its another straw person, or you sourced it from some internet forum and not a legit group.

    12. The correct statement is “women are responsible for 60% of household spending decisions” , and you would immediately know that if you googled “women 60% wealth” or something similar. Another example of your disingenuous nature.

    • 1. Yes, men’s conditioning to avoid “weakness” is another good point. Radical feminists agree that this sort of conditioning is an important part of the problem.

      Also 1,000 to 1,500 murder-suicides is certainly “many” even if not statistically outstanding in the larger picture. This was included more to show what details are often hidden in statistics than to suggest men’s suicide rate is higher because of them.

      2. I did not write this list of claims. It was taken directly from an MRA source. http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/05/12-reasons-men-are-second-class.html

      3. That women vote does not mean that they control the government. According to the most recent polling, less than one in five Americans are satisfied with the way the country is governed. http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/dabnkx4lr0qavpqim1tzia.png The majority of even female war veterans have been critical of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/12/poll-us-military-women-more-critical-than-men-of-iraq-afghan-wars-/1

      As for your second point, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Are you trying to say it is worse to be killed outright then to be sexually tortured and then killed afterwards?

      4. No, I don’t mean to imply that he is at fault. Nor are women at fault. The fault lies in the perpetuation and valuation of masculinity in patriarchal society.

      5. I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.

      6. From the cited article: “Despite myths put out by fathers that mothers always win custody cases, fathers actually win custody in 70% of custody disputes, and this is true even though most men who abuse women and children are far more likely than other fathers to fight for custody and engage in prolonged litigation.” Yes, women do usually receive custody in general, but when a dispute exists fathers are more likely to win.

      7. If you can pull up 5 examples of women abusively terrorizing their husbands, I’ll match them with 500 examples of men terrorizing their wives.

      8. Agreed. Again, I did not write the original list.

      9. See #2.

      10. As that article points out, “we do not have data on the frequency, context, or consequences of the violence”. That is to say acts of self-defense and in response to terror are classed as equal to unprovoked or abusive acts of aggression, and the regularity with which abuse is doled out goes unexamined. And so, for instance, a man who batters his wife on a day to day basis would be coded exactly the same as a woman who once hit her husband during a fight. Without this information the article is of dubious worth.

      11. See #2.

      12. Again, these are not my claims. As for the claim about women being responsible for 60% of household spending, that says absurdly little about their overall economic power within a relationship. More likely than not that indicates nothing except that they’re usually responsible for taking care of the bills and doing the grocery shopping.

      • Your claims are quite dishonest.

        For instance, it is quite common for men to be exclusively targeted for killing in conflict regions, while women are not killed at all.

        Example:

        http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2014/01/23/report-reveals-massive-gendercide-against-men-news-media-barely-notice-noh/

        “allowing an estimate of images of one thousand three hundred (1,300) individual corpses being considered by the forensics team…..The vast majority of the images were of young men most likely between the ages of twenty and forty, with a minority more likely to be up to sixty years old. There were no children. Within the images seen, **there was only one female body** and this was clothed and showed no evidence of injury. The bodies were mostly unclothed or minimally clothed.”

        ” And so, for instance, a man who batters his wife on a day to day basis would be coded exactly the same as a woman who once hit her husband during a fight. ”

        I frequently see the dishonest claims that women only commit domestic violence in self-defense, that women do not injure their partners, etc.

        ” Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.”

        Read More: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

        Do you understand that? That is women attacking their NON-violent male partners. Where is your excuse for that?

        It seems like you want to believe that women are victims, discriminated against, and oppressed, while men are not victims or oppressed in any way, and that women as a gender could never be at fault.

        Why is that?

  4. Three errors on your first point.
    Check your stats on women attempting suicide, you will find that they ‘report’ attempting suicide three times more. This isn’t derived from a gurney count at A and E.
    Second, just because women say it three times more but do it 4.6 times less is evidence of one thing only. Women are 15.8 times less effective at turning thoughts into action.
    Third, even if your proposition about murder suicide was relevant trimming the figures by 1000 or 1500 doesn’t make much of a dent in the ratios. Get your calculator out and do the math.
    It really is disappointing to see just how low you stoop to try and debunk MRMs. Is your desperation to shore up feminism you seem to have lost your moral compass. You really need some downtime and a period of reflection. To continue on the path you are on will most surely be a waste of a life.

  5. “men are inclined to select work that is dangerous in order to prove their masculinity to women, to other men, and to themselves”

    Yep, that’s why firemen do what they do to save lives, because they’re trying to prove their masculinity.. The idiot that wrote this article needs no further views on this article.

    • Relax. The author used the word “inclined”, which is not a catch-all to assume EVERY man who works a dangerous job is only doing so to demonstrate his masculinity. His point is that–among other reasons for choosing a career path–men sometimes make their decision based on how they will be perceived for performing dangerous work. One reason women don’t enter these fields as often is because the working environments associated with construction sites, theatres of war, and so forth are incredibly hostile to females. Sexual harassment and assault are far more likely to happen in these male-dominated industries, which is yet another deterrent for women. Therefore, working dangerous jobs is like belonging to an all-boys club. How masculine is that?

      At any rate, people decide on their careers for optical reasons all the time–regardless of gender. Some study medicine to be perceived as intelligent. Others become lawyers to be perceived as powerful. Assuming you have a job, you likely also factored in what your friends and family would think of you in whatever line of work you ultimately chose. It happens.

    • In many cases men with families to support have no option but to take the dangerous jobs women would’nt be allowed to do.

  6. “Moreover, we are socialized with a sense of self-importance that can lead men to believe family members would be better off dead without them or to use suicide as a form of revenge against people close to them.” – you have an amazing skill of impugning the reason’s for another man’s suicide. Dude, teach me to be as presumptuous as you.

    Good to know that the reason I work in hard labour is to impress women with my masculinity.. I didn’t know that. I’m learning so much.

    • What in the comment you quoted implied that any specific men definitely makes his choices based on that set of reasons?

  7. This isn’t a ‘debunking’. You haven’t statistically disproven any of these. You’ve just come up with a self-serving rationalization as an excuse to claim that they don’t actually matter.

    This is ultimately the problem with feminism: too much fantasy, too little intellectual rigor. Hell, you admit that you don’t even have access to some of these papers. Do you honestly believe that any serious researcher would use that as an excuse not to look over the research? No, they would buy access and conduct their research, because they would be serious about this, which you quite clearly are not.

    You can’t go into research with an agenda. You just can’t. And looking at the name of your blog, it’s pretty clear that you’ve got an agenda.

    • You are one of the worst spammers I’ve ever seen. Nobody on either side of the fence wants to watch your bullshit videos. Just fuck off and buy some fucking banner ads instead of posting your fucking links on every fucking blog post that has anything to do with men’s rights.

      “Ratings disabled” eh? I wonder why. Fuck off.

  8. Much of this article comes across as a ridiculous apologetic. I think MRAs are ridiculous, but this article seems hell-bent on showing that men have NO disadvantages, and that’s just not true. They DO die younger, and that’s not good, even if you have the need to claim that it’s their own damned fault.

    “Men die in the workplace” but that’s because they need to prove their masculinity. NO. They are doing grueling, dangerous jobs because they have little choice. And they aren’t being abused in the workplace because they WANT to be. How idiotic.

    • Men die sooner? Women bleed monthly. What’s your fucking point? Women don’t control nature, or the fact that most men don’t give a crap about their health. The solution is probably something like STOP EATING CRAP, and thinking it’s “manly” to do so. LMFAO! Sorry bozo, you can’t blame that one on us.

      • Wow. Death is on par with menstruation. I’ve heard it all folks. But you know what, you DO control social norms and mores. We all do. Women need to embrace letting men break their roles. Men are dying in droves in dangerous jobs because the alternative is getting divorced and having not only the kids taken away, but the house and all of the money he’s spent his whole life working to provide for his kids. That threat keeps many men in asbestos-ridden workplaces, working overtime every week (I’m not going to have a day off for the next three months, but hey who the fuck is a man to talk about his own issues?), and cutting corners to make it happen.

        Ooooooh but women bleed every month! If I say that, everything you just said is invalid! That’s how you’re using it, right? It’s fine for me to do the same? That’s not sexist or insulting? Glad we’re on the same page. Don’t pull that kind of garbage. Don’t compare deaths to your monthly reproductive cycle. Those two things are pretty much diametrically opposed.

        Thanks for your illuminating advice though. We can end workplace fatalities all by telling men to eat better. You are clearly an expert in safety and should be speaking up on the issue. Buzz off with that, the dead men who can’t speak for themselves don’t need you chasing them into their graves with hysterical shushing. Nor do those alive appreciate your condescension. At least earn the right to do so first, as an individual, with your words and actions.

  9. If a man is abused by his wife and then he murders her, should he be “honored as a hero” too? Let’s also assume that she is the breadwinner in the family, is more physically able than him, and beats the kids too. How ’bout then? In fact, can you admit to any situation in which you would call a man a hero if he killed a woman who he was not in immediate danger from?

      • where? I see an argument reversed to prove how preposterous it is. Show us the straw man please Mr Emperor no-clothes.

    • He wouldn’t be lauded as a hero because murder should never be celebrated, and outright celebrations for the death of male abusers is atrocious to me. But killing that was the only way he could have protected himself or his children in that situation, he would have done right by himself and his family.

      To be honest, I don’t see your point. The perception that men are the perpetrators of spousal abuse is a tenet of the patriarchy that depicts women as the victims of society. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equally responsible for their actions.

  10. Owen,
    I keep returning to your blog in the same way that my hand might reach to scratch a swollen insect bite. Your efforts must have taken some time and it seems clear that you have a degree of intellectual integrity. But something is wrong here, an obviously intelligent man doesn’t knowingly reason so ineptly.

    I note that you are a stay at home Dad and I think that’s a very cool thing to be. Having done long stretches of the same I did find that while it was emotionally rewarding it did leave me with a lot of free time and a real need for a challenge and some intellectual stimulation ( oh and some male company as well). Is that the situation you are in? Is this blog an elegantly disguised experiment (that perhaps gains you some kudos in a network that I guess could be dominated by ‘strong independent women’) that enables you to connect with freethinking men in a feminist approvable manner.

    Apologies if my projections are provocative, but when I imagine you I get the image of a metaphorically caged man chained to a radiator in a feminist household urgently clattering away on the keyboard to prove to his (soon to return) dominating mistress that he is worthy of the cost of an internet connection, his last remaining connection to the free world.

    I lost my best mate to a feminist. It has been a cruel torture to see his mind slowly destroyed by her brutal insidious indoctrination. Mea culpa. I failed in my duties to him as a man and as his friend. In my defence, I was young and had so little idea of just how noxious the sweet smell of ‘equality’ could be, I had been intoxicated by its scent as well. Twenty years ago, no one knew that a feminist needs a mans soul like a virus needs a host.

    Twenty years on, I am free. Poorer. Wiser. But FREE. Free from my violent alcoholic feminist ‘partner’. Free to sleep safely alone at night, not fearing being woken by her fist in my face. The price for the luxury of sleeping safely at night? £250,000.00 for the ‘strong independent feminist’. A price worth paying.

    And my best mate. Twenty years on he is a tenth of the man he once was. Twenty years on he visibly struggles when life throws up ideas or evidence that conflicts with the beliefs she prescribes for him. On the rare occasions that he musters the courage to speak, he continuosly looks to her, searching her mean face for the smallest hints of approval that he is ‘on message’ and it is safe for him to continue. Twenty years on and the merest flicker of her discontent and he stammers, grasping desperately for some safe platitude that will save him from more torment.

    The most difficult thing for me is that when he feels safe, those few precious rare unguarded moments, you get a glimpse of the free ranging intellect that used to inhabit the vacuous shell his mind now is, and just for a second you realise what a man he could have been and the life he could have led. Now he is just a shadow, her shadow. A pathetic man, a knowingly and publicly cuckolded man (apparently even feminists still need the thrill of being regularly ..cked by a red blooded man or in her case men). Twenty years on, just a mirage of a man.

    What you have written seems uncannily similar to what he would write, a cowed intellect’s furtive attempt to gain a feminists approval. A sly attempt at conjuring the impossible from the insubstantial. Facts stretched so thin, they become a transparent veneer for the lies they seek so urgently to conceal. A desperate missive from a despairing man.

    Owen, find the strength to free yourself. For you, for your family, for your future. It is your mind. No one else can do it for you. Take the first step. Take the red pill. 🙂

    Leon

  11. Wow, great points. It’s important to note that this article is focused on US law. In Canada, the statements about men being more successful in court custody cases does not hold.
    Canada: http://edwardkruk.com/jms.pdf (pg 165)
    “A recent evaluation of Canada’s new divorce act…found, in analysis of 1988 court file data, where there was a trial, custody was awarded to mothers in 77% of cases, and to fathers in only 8.6%…”

    US: http://amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm (supports statement in the above article)

    This is a subject dear to my heart because my father fought hard for custody of me and I am grateful. If he had not been so determined my childhood would have been a disaster, and I would probably not be alive at the moment.

  12. On the professions that are more dangerous.
    If MRA want to whine about combat deaths and dangerous profession deaths they can welcome us in those professions, to die alongside them instead of undermining the movement to get women in combat, and into trades.

    • If we agree to drop physical standards so that more women qualify for combat roles, even more men will die because the combat unit will be weaker than it otherwise was.
      In other dangerous professions women are already welcome to join they simply choose not to.
      So no, no MRAs are whining, we are stating facts. It’s you who are debasing women with your poorly considered arguments.

      • What makes you think women are welcome in these dangerous professions? Do you consider the exorbitant rates of sexual harassment and assault to be inviting? Do you think cat-calling and discriminatory remarks boost morale? Females are far more likely to be victimized by their coworkers in male-dominated industries, and often the options for recourse are tragically ineffective–if not nonexistent.

        If you believe women decide not to work in these professions, then understand that it’s not because the work is dirty. It’s not because the work is hard. It’s because they are FORCED to consider alternatives that are less likely to result in such turmoil and injustice.

        So is that really a choice then?

      • What “physical standards” are you referring to, exactly? Aren’t tiny men always claiming that “it’s not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog”? My, how you misogynists love your flip-flops.

        Btw… you’ll find that most real Feminists are opposed to combat, unless absolutely necessary. There’s really no need for any additional knuckle-dragging behavior.

  13. Well my experience in those industries and the evidence makes me think that. l I spent many years training people in the construction industry. Any women who applied were pretty much green lighted from the application stage. The trouble was they just couldn’t hack it. It’s demanding physical work and very few could do it. No one ever quit for any of the reasons you describe, they usually left because it wasn’t worthwhile working that much harder for the additional money.

    I progressed up the scale and moved into the professional side, occasionally we had female architects and engineers on the team. As a generalisation they were a wee bit paranoid. Always worried us guys were trying to fool them even when we were playing it straighter than usual out of a sense of chivalry. Anyway I’m sure you don’t believe me so check this out. http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2014/mar/11/building-bridges-women-in-construction. You will find that women in construction are pretty positive about it.

    I would love to see your evidence showing that rates of sexual harassment are significantly different in dangerous professions. By the sounds of all your bluster you are bluffing.

    I don’t know where you are from but here in the EU any form of discrimination leads to big payouts so there is very little. But in my own personal experience I have seen women leave because the work is dirty and the work is hard. But I would love for more women to do it because even the most ardent feminist has a damn sight more respect for men after she’s tried to do a day in a traditional male job.

    So in summary yes women have the choice but very few are tough enough to hack it. The ones that do have zero respect for entitled feminist princesses who just want the world made so much easier so that their true brilliance can shine through like special little snowflakes in a rainbow.

    I now work in STEM , biomedical engineering to be precise and yes the women are only about ten percent of the workforce and before you say it they are over represented in our senior management. They are world class. Do you think that these world class women in STEM have any regard for the academic abilities of women in gender studies. I can assure you they have no regard for them at all. In fact they think women in gender studies give serious women in academia a bad name.

    • Leon, I left a job and took a job with less money attached exclusively because my boss got pissed when I told him he needed to stop hugging me. If he would’ve treated me like the only other woman that we worked with I would’ve stayed, because I loved it. Proof enough for you?

    • Leon, I left a “male” job I absolutely loved for a job with less money attatched to it exclusively because my boss quit teaching me the things I needed to learn to do my job when I told him that he needed to stop hugging me. Proof enough for you?

      • Three things.
        First. One swallow doesn’t make a summer.
        Second. Are you saying that this only happens in ‘male jobs’ and that the same thing doesn’t or can’t happen in the general work place or happens at a significantly different rate?
        Third. Do you think that it is significantly different from a mans experience in a female dominated workplace?

        So while you’ve had a bad experience, no sorry, it’s only anecdotal evidence and wouldn’t qualify as what most people would consider proof and certainly isn’t proof enough for me.

    • One. You stated that women leave “male jobs” because they don’t like hard work. Here is a perfect example of that untruth. The fact that you take your experience for absolute truth and dismiss mine for a crappy, never before occurred incident despite blatant evidence to the contrary is very telling. I have spent some time in female laden occupations as a cna in nursing homes, and I can tell you outright, the males that I worked with made more money and were constantly told how awesome they were ( not the point, they were awesome) and how males were so very needed in the nursing business ( again, not the point, they are) I can tell you without a doubt, no, it is absolutely not the same. I’m not saying that men aren’t sexually harassed at work, I’m positive it happens with frequency. But it most definitely happens to women more.

    • Most privileged, white-bread males (such as yourself) don’t work a “traditional” male job; they sit on their fannies all day in front of a computer. When they aren’t busy eyeballing the last Butterfinger in the vending machine, they’re surfing the net for porn or shit-talking a female co-worker. Hard work indeed. Truly back-breaking.

      Try being a nursing assistant for ONE DAY, you soft bastard. Try cleaning vomit, blood & shit all day. Try lifting obese patients in and out of their beds all day. Better yet, try giving birth. Would you like to have an entire infant pulled out of your out-stretched bunghole? Yeah… I didn’t think so.

      Privilege lives in ignorance.

  14. Thanks so much for this piece, its dissection of the stats is so useful.

    I think it would be strengthened further by removing the gender reductionism in the point about war:
    ‘On every level of analysis it is men who are responsible for war, and to somehow blame male combat deaths on women is not only absurd, but insane. If we want to stop these deaths, we need to stop those who are responsible for them: the male politicians, male military personnel, male war contractors, and male warmongers who perpetuate them.’

    This ignores class as a key cause of war. Either wars of national liberation or, more commonly, imperialist wars which are conducted to further the interests of the most powerful capitalists. As we know, oil has been a key motivation for the recent wars by the USA on the Middle East, and this is more because of capital’s current reliance on it than male psychology. War is most certainly gendered and it does have significantly greater support amongst men, but that doesn’t make the issue reducible to gender.

    One of the reasons (aside from socialised male privilege) that the MRM is even able to get traction is that men don’t understand that capitalism causes a lot of their problems, so they seize on prevailing anti-woman ideology to blame women instead and portray men as the victim in most things. So anti-capitalist analysis is vital to feminists defeating this male privilege advocacy.

  15. I cannot seem to reply directly to TheCameraLady and while I feel compelled to respond to other ignorant responses, the fact that this woman (I am assuming, of course, based on her name, that she is a woman) believes that the pay gap between men and women is based on the jobs they choose being different is so beyond ignorant, I actually laughed when I read her comment. The pay gap isn’t about women and men doing different jobs and getting paid accordingly for those jobs, the pay gap is about women and men doing the SAME jobs and getting paid disproportionately for them.

    I find a lot of other comments by the MRAs to be very telling. They want equal protection from violence when violence against women is disproportionately higher than violence toward men. They also love to individualize the issues by saying things like how they do this or that job, but not because they are trying to prove their masculinity, etc. Those are all strawman arguments and why the MRAs will never take a giant hold on our society (thank god) because they are so concerned with minimizing male violence, with trying to make it look like men are victims of women when the opposite is overwhelmingly true, that people will never take them seriously. If MRAs really cared about equality, instead of attacking women on-line and trying to debunk male violence, they would acknowledge male violence and try to work with women to end ALL violence.

    This is a patriarchal society where men have more advantages, more pay, and less violence to deal with than women, but to hear MRAs tell it, it is the opposite. That’s where your arguments fall short, fellas and why debunking blogs like this are necessary.

    • Wrong on all counts.
      The pay gap has been debunked so many times it’s a joke. Unfortunately people with agendas keep citing it to blow smoke up womens arses, or as bill maher once said, to make women nod, because there’s votes and money in making women nod. Because your worth it. Nod nod.
      The domestic violence issue has been debunked. Erin Pizzey the woman who created the first refuge for women will tell you all about it on youtube, in spite of the death threats feminists made so that she had to leave the country.
      If men have all the advantages and less violence to face why do we die earlier?
      And as for the pathetic attempt to shame us, if men really cared etc etc, well forget it, we’ve spent millennia giving a shit, and see where that’s got us.

      • Classic BS cop-out. Instead of citing data that can be understood and dissected, you simply say it’s “been debunked so many times” and close the door. Can’t argue with that, can I!

      • Well if you are genuinely interested do an internet search. Not really my job to reinvent the wheel for you.

      • You’re a real laugh Leon.

        Leon: “What you said is wrong. I am right and have been proven right numerous times. So many times it is a joke.”
        Me: “REALLY now? And do you have numbers backing that up?”
        Leon: “Um, fucking Google?”

        What a brilliant debate!

  16. This “debunking” has very little merit. It’s full of generalizations and assumptions. It would also seem that you think men are Caucasian by default. Varying the demographics, your arguments do not stand up. I’d go from point to point, however, there are so many biased and baseless assumptions, that I wouldn’t know where to start. I applaud you for attempting, and would encourage you to write an article that would meet the minimum academic standards.

  17. Of course, where these sorts of claims have any merit, it would be far better if self-described MRAs actually did anything about them. Well, not literally *anything*, we know they piss and moan about it a lot and that gets old. But anything vaguely positive that actually addresses an issue, you know, with that “activism” thing, would be nice.

  18. Thank goodness for the comments here, debunking this debunking! The thing with men’s rights is that it is a byproduct of feminism working. Well done to feminism for that! Any true feminist will recognise male rights as well and aim for equality. Sadly, whenever change comes it hurts the other side unfairly too.

    Your blog was useful in showing some of the discrimination men suffer, which I otherwise was not aware of. Your supposed facts and fake debunking have been debunked quite nicely by others commenting here so there is no need for me to do it.

    Whoever you are trying to impress with this hate-filled piece of nonsense, I hope she is worth it. Your lies here come across as quite evil and a danger to humanity. I hope that you are just an idiot trying to impress a girl and not truly evil. I urge you to take this rubbish down before it does real harm.

  19. You’re all fucking retarded.

    Are men discriminated against in some areas? Absolutely. Every group faces discrimination, and saying differently makes you an asshole. Do I lose sleep over men’s discrimination? No, because on the whole it’s not that bad.

  20. Claim: “This is not a matter of “bias”: women are sometimes acquitted of murdering their husbands because their husbands abused them or their children.”
    Evidence:” It is estimated that 1.3 million women are beaten by male partners in the United States every year, putting them in fear for their lives.”

    This piece of evidence is either deficient or irrelevant. The author claimed that women are sometimes acquitted of spousal murder because the husband was abusive. The author then said that 1.3 million women are physically abused by their husbands/boyfriends every year in the US.

    Is it these 1.3 million women that make up the majority of women being acquitted of spousal murder?

    I think the author needs to clarify this in order to make this argument make sense.

    • Angela Browne’s book When Batter Women Kill speaks to this: “When women do kill, it is often in their own defense. A report by a government commission on violence estimated that homicides committed by women were seven times as likely to be in self-defense as homicides committed by men.” However this is an older text and while I trust these numbers are still roughly accurate I’ve tried to rely on more recent citations. When I find one I will use it.

      • There’s a great book just out by Elizabeth Sheehy that the MRA’s are shitting themselves over. She’s a distinguished lawyer in Canada advocating for women not going to jail for murder when they save their own lives from a batterer. She goes into great detail, on a case by case basis, describing the legal wrangling and presenting a very honest look at the subject.

  21. This is essentially a ‘men are evil, women are victims’ argument. This ‘men vs women’; ‘us vs them’ argument will never go anywhere. It’s just collective egos, trying to agree that ‘We’re right’ and ‘they’re wrong’.

    It will go nowhere. Most people are good, some people are violent. Both Women and Men can do atrocious things.

    But as I have said, this argument will go nowhere. Wage your war, but remember all wars are the same.

    Also, I am a man, and I do not wan’t to be judged just because I was born one. Likewise, I will not judge a woman because she was born one.

    • I don’t agree. I think that the true feminist movement (and I’m not talking the man bashers that call themselves feminists), was/is necessary as women are NOT classed as equal in this fundamentally patriarchal society that western culture operates in. We have come a long way in balancing the scales but there’s still a way to go. Personally I feel that the MRM was born of men trying to regain the control that genuine feminism was/is succeeding to diffuse.

      I really don’t see the op as man bashing or hating. I don’t see it as “men are evil women are victims”, I see it as an attempt to illustrate the man extremely flawed arguments put forward by MRAs. Most level headed men I know laugh at most of the stuff they read or are exposed to from MRAs.

      Of course people from all walks of life will fall foul to violence and hardship – no one is disputing that, but claiming that men, on the whole, are classed as beneath the rest of society is, quite frankly, absurd.

  22. Men get drafted into war. Women don’t. Men get forced into circumcision. Women don’t. Female-on-male rape isn’t even acknowledged as rape (unless there’s a statutory rape charge) in some jurisdictions. There are few, if any, shelters for male victims of domestic violence and their children. Many shelters won’t even accept men. Men face sexism in even simple things like clothing. If a woman wears pants, fine. If a man wears a skirt or high heels, he’s a freak. The bottom line is, we’re all victims of sexism at some point in our lives.

  23. To be honest part of the issue with the whole MRA movement is that, like early forms of feminism, it completely ignores social, economic, and racial differences. I totally believe that men are discriminated against in some instances. Is it at the same rate as the discrimination against women? No. Are white men discriminated against at the same rate as black/hispanic/arabic/etc. men? No fucking way. In the same sense socio-economic differences also play a huge role. Of the men who participate in fighting useless wars, I’m sure the majority come from families on the lower end of the economic spectrum. Especially in the US, that generally means poorer quality in education and opportunities available which could have led to a different path in life. However, do girls/women in the same situation have better opportunities presented to them? No.

    Its the societal values regarding race and gender that continue to be perpetuated that need to change. Claiming that men, on a whole, have it worse than women is not the way to go, but its the only way that white men can hide behind the discrimination directed towards men of colour in order to claim they’re gender has it worse.

  24. “By contrast, only 241 men were killed by their female partners. [13] This figure is disturbingly low, given that more than 200,000 women in the United States suffer serious violence from male partners each year. [14]”

    I agree with a lot of the things you posted, but I think you should rephrase the above sentence. There is no such thing as a “disturbingly low” rate of domestic murder. Not in comparison to anything. All murder rates are disturbingly high, the number of women murdered by partners is much higher. The way you wrote it makes it sound like more men should be murdered to even out the gap as opposed to finding ways to lower the murder rate for both male and female victims. I get what you meant, but you really should have said that the rate of women killed by male partners is disturbingly high to avoid making it sound like you find male murder rates disappointing.

    • You also compared 241 men being killed to 200, 000 women suffering from serious violence. Does that mean 200, 000 women die each year as a result of domestic violence from male partners, or are you comparing two different things? I ask because I am interested in the numbers.

  25. While I agree with most of what you’ve written, your statement of “It’s not women’s responsibility to do anything about men raping men. It’s men’s business” is definitely perpetuating the problem here. Even after you clarify that you didn’t mean that they shouldn’t. That’s an extremely polarized way of looking at things. It’s like someone saying “Well it’s not my responsibility to try and help end slavery because my town owns no slaves” ( though “a much smaller amount of slaves than any of the other towns” is probably a more accurate analogy). Why isn’t it every person’s responsibility to stop every rape?

    I get that you are debunking but if you’re going to change any MRA’s mind about anything, or even try and raise awareness for the issue at hand, that sentence is going to do more harm than good.

  26. Danger in the workplace is caused by the fucking bosses. They’re the ones who keep work dangerous by not properly following regulations to make more money. When a coal mine collapses and kills a bunch of men, it’s not the men’s fault. Any analysis of gender has to include a more general analysis of power, including economic power.

  27. Pingback: Response to Debunking MRA. | chazwoldalmighty
  28. re: reading the comments — Jesus Christ, MRAs are a real thing. I kind of want to laugh and cry at the same time. Deja vu of recent feelings reading about the White Man’s March and the Stop The White Genocide movement. All equal, bigoted scum. Fuck off 4evar, fedoras.

    • Fedoras? Since when the hell is a fedora a bad thing??? MRAs are not bad people. I’m one. I don’t like this feminism thing that tries too hard not to sound like Female supremacy,I also hate the fact that men like you exist,the male feminist who is a self-hating male. Ps. There is a white genocide believe it or not and there is a masculine genocide,it may not be a blood fest just yet but it’s a slow progressing genocide. Feminists are bigoted scums,ya know?

  29. Hey seen your poster over a CAFE poster. How cute, next time you wish to lie about us try and use facts from Canada. I know your M.O. is to lie, obfuscate, use ad-homs.
    It is comical, that’s all you’ve been reduced to.
    Carry on, we do enjoy your brand of humour.

    Dan Perrins.
    News director for Canada at AVFM
    Director / spokesperson at Men’s Human Rights Ontario.

    • I’m very sorry that some female writing bullshit on wordpress is trying to make men look evil,yet again and people seem to believe her. I’m very sorry fellow MRA and brother. :C I really hate being female,I feel like men hate me just for being one in fears that I would be a crazy feminist.

      • How do you know its a female author?
        Male feminists are just as bad.
        Fewer and fewer people are buying what feminism is saying. They should have never lied about half the human race.
        You should see a therapist for your self hatred.

      • Well for one, the author is indeed male, not female. It wouldn’t matter what gender they are to be honest. But please don’t hate yourself/being female just because of feminists. SOME feminists are shitheads. SOME women are manipulative and vindictive. You probably aren’t. Most aren’t. There is no excuse to experience outright hatred of someone for their affiliation, if their actions have not merited it. There are good feminists too. As ‘diamond-in-the-rough’ as they seem at times.

  30. Pingback: Some masculinist rubbish… | The Prime Directive
  31. All I’ve read here is complete bullshit. I am female,hate my ugly ass vagina and female body. Women are the scum of the Earth,now answer this: If Masculinism is male supremacy,isn’t Feminism female supremacy? Gosh,Women disgust me and on a day-by-day basis making me regret ever being born female,one day either I kill myself or I get a sex change,you guys are evil banshees.

    • Thank you for proving that MRA handmaidens are misogynistic pieces of shit, swimming in self-hatred & loathing. Your attitude is a reflection of our woman-hating society. Yes, by all means, get a sex change, you dirty traitor. We don’t want or need somebody like you to represent the millions of women who fall victim to your murderous, penis-wielding idols. Real, true Feminism is for those of us who refuse to live our lives as fuckholes, sandwich makers & baby incubators. There is no place in this movement for weak-minded MRA Kool-Aid drinkers like you. You are an embarrassment to all of womankind; a sell-out, a back-stabber, a bile-filled toilet in need of a good flushing. But, like most handmaidens, you’ll come crawling to Feminism when your little cock-worshiping paradise turns into a fucking nightmare. That is when I hope to be the one that slams the door in your face.

      Enjoy the rest of your pitiful existence.

      • So let me get this straight, you lead in with the ever-classy “gender traitor” attack, when this person isn’t even claiming to be trans. Then you go on a tirade about how having a penis makes you this horrible oppressive person (exactly… how again? Do the penises themselves hate you?) and how traditional roles and choices are unacceptable entirely. As if you have the right to tell women that choose to be homemakers that their choices are wrong. You apparently don’t support all women as you’ve made it clear only certain kinds of women are acceptable. How accepting and not misogynist of you! Oh wait, I actually used that word right unlike you!

        Hilariously enough, this person you’re talking to doesn’t want to be called a feminist. You’re trying so hard to exclude them from something they want no part of. You demonize her and throw her under the bus just because of a differently held position. You spit in her face and tell her that when (presuming ‘when’ is a real thing, which it in all likelihood is not) the time comes that she needs help the most, you won’t be there for her. In fact, you plan to make it worse!

        No, preach to us all about misogyny some more, and continue failing to practice what you preach. It’s so unbelievably impressive, your rant on the internet. You’re really changing hearts and minds talking like that.

        My sarcasm is off the charts here, but I’m hoping at least something got through. Even if not to you, hopefully to others reading, who also did not accept the original poster’s claims at face value. Like we shouldn’t.

    • As shitty as some people are, it is not worth you hating yourself over it. I don’t hate myself because of the men out there who are guilty of rape or murder. I am not responsible for them, as you are not responsible for they. Don’t sweat it.

  32. In many of those cases men are both the victims and the perpetrators, yet when violent and aggressive behaviour for example is not permitted and discouraged in schools those same MRA whine about a war on boys. When people try to look at how masculinity is defined and find out what is causing so much violence and find ways to fix this, those same MRA types are the first to yell misandry! and that men are being feminized etc.

    You just can’t win with those people. What’s clear though is that they don’t really care about men, at all, they just hate women. They hate women for daring to liberate themselves.

    • About work deaths and injuries for example those same MRA’s don’t want men to die less, i.e. improving safety, they just want women to die more to make it equal. Their whole movement is based on rabid misogyny and nothing about actually improving the situation of men.

  33. It’s telling how good you are at debunking things, when after I post a link to my article challenging everything you’ve said, I come back to see you’ve made changes to your document, as number 8 is suddenly 3 times as long and now actually bothered citing a source.

    If your article isn’t going to stand up to scrutiny on its own, you don’t get to go back and change things. You have a whole blog site and only one article you’re fiddling with. If its such a grand failure the first time, do another one.

    The above comments also show you’ve been doing this since the start, since “Jessica” called you out on this statement ““By contrast, only 241 men were killed by their female partners. This figure is disturbingly low, given that more than 200,000 women in the United States suffer serious violence from male partners each year. “, because you realized what a fuck wit you sound like claiming the murder of men is “disturbingly low”

    This has been pretty shameful. I’m done with you.

      • Yes, you are. When someone shows weakness in a study, they go back to the drawing board and start over. They don’t go and edit an original document. It’s duplicitous. It’s why, for instance, I added an addendum to my section on suicide instead of just changing the whole thing and acting like my shit never stinks.

  34. Pingback: Why The Men’s Rights Movement Is Garbage | Chocolate & chai

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s